Illustration DALL-E
This interview centers around Luigi Zoja’s book Il declino del desiderio (in Italian) or Le déclin du désir (in French) [The Decline of Sexuality, not translated in English].
Claire Droin: You often use mythological references to explain contemporary phenomena. How does mythology help us understand the decline of desire in the 21st century?
Luigi Zoja: Myth tends to encompass, represent, and condense every meaningful dynamic of the psyche. Broadly speaking, it serves as an antecedent to psychic activity. Of course, this isn’t only my claim; it’s a common approach found in the work of Jung and Erich Neumann. In fact, this perspective doesn’t begin strictly with Jung but goes back, in some way, to Nietzsche, whom Jung often regarded as one of his principal mentors. Nietzsche doesn’t limit himself to studying social, historical, and psychological phenomena: he refers to their genealogy—or antecedents—a term found throughout his writings.
The counterpart of myth in popular, oral culture is the fairy tale. For example, the wolf wants to devour the lamb, so he accuses the little creature of harming him. In Paranoia. The Madness that Makes History, I noted how often this reflects not just an individual « shadow projection », but also a tragic dynamic in collective events. Hitler starts World War II by accusing Poland of aggressive behavior. Putin invades Ukraine, claiming it threatens Russia. But how can a large power be menaced by a much smaller one? Unfortunately, this is nothing new—it’s a psychological truth expressed in tales, in fact by Phaedrus thousands of years ago.
In the book Il declino del desiderio. Perché il mondo sta rinunciando al sesso (2022) [The Decline of Sexuality, not translated in English], I naturally use many Freudian concepts; however, the framework I follow remains grounded in my training and studies in Jungian psychology.
At the end of the 20th century, I published a book titled Growth and Guilt: Psychology and the Limits of Development. The title of the Greek edition is also telling: Hybris (or Hubris) and Nemesis. Now, however, I need to rewrite it with extensive updates. The economic crises of the 21st century, and above all the violent shifts of climate change, compel us to examine the Western model of infinite growth on a finite Earth. We keep reaching, and breaking, the limits.
Once the entire Earth was conquered, exploration was replaced by tourism, which in turn gave way to consumerism and often, if I may say, to stupidity. Recently, a tour operator offered extremely wealthy people a sightseeing trip to the Titanic, and by the way, they all died. Now Mr. Musk wants to develop interplanetary tourism for people who are even richer. Does this make sense in a world where many socio-economic crises are not only unsolved but often unaddressed due to a lack of funds?
In Greek myth, the gods were not concerned with morality: morality was simply about respecting limits. If humans sought to accumulate too much wealth or happiness, the gods would punish their desires or fortunes.
In the late 20th century, I met scientists from the MIT–Club of Rome group. I thought their famous Reports were not only important scientific studies, but also a retelling of a mythical tale from a psychological perspective: the tale of Hybris, the personification of arrogance, being punished by its Nemesis. Archetypes tend to repeat themselves even if we are not conscious of our role in that.
All human phenomena encounter limits despite progress. Health care continues to improve tremendously, yet we still grow old and die. Human drives or instincts, what Freud calls Trieb, are no exception, including sexuality.
Let’s consider another primary human instinct: hunger. The quantity and quality of food production have increased tremendously.
- Yet individually, even food we adore, such as a chocolate bar, can become disgusting beyond a certain amount. It might even induce vomiting. This is an absolutely natural phenomenon.
- At a collective level, poor countries are transitioning directly from undernourishment to obesity and diabetes.
Why should sexuality, a natural human manifestation, be exempt from this natural law?
In your work, you analyze the evolution of sexuality through economic models. Do you believe that market logic has ultimately taken over intimacy?
Let me answer your question in two parts.
A. Yes, market logic, consumerism, and excessive competition have compromised what we broadly refer to as a love relationship in many ways. Today, many young men aim to conquer a girl not necessarily because they are madly in love with her—often, they have only met her on a screen—but because, upon seeing her photo on an app, they believe other boys will admire or envy them.
Actually, a juvenile judge told me that she had noticed this regression in a materialistic world deprived of passions as early as the 1990s. While checking the correspondence of the underage criminals under her supervision, she observed that, whereas in the 80s they expressed a deep desire to be free from jail to reunite with their girlfriends, they began to change the focus of their nostalgia. What they wanted to see again was their motorbike!
Even in Freud’s rather materialistic approach, a man needs a drive, or Trieb, but it must be associated with a certain amount of Zärtlichkeit, or tenderness. Of course, at that time, sexuality was mostly considered to be men’s sexuality.
Even at the end of the 60s, when I was studying at the Jung Institute in Zurich, the mythical (and sharp-tongued) Jolande Jacobi would look at us men and raise a finger, saying:“You believe that you hold the power in the relationship. False! If you want to go to bed with a woman, she could accommodate you and fake it, but if you have no genuine interest, you might find yourself unable to achieve an erection!” Back then, Viagra did not exist, and even now it may help with some physical functions, but it does not ignite passion or tenderness, which are more or less associated with the archetypes.
Regarding the disappearance of myths and rituals, Jung’s theories have received strong, albeit indirect, confirmation from the Israeli-French sociologist Eva Illouz. In her book Why Love Hurts, she examines the new forms of suffering associated with love relationships today, which lack the centuries-old cultural framework of collectively recognized passion and rituals.
According to Jung, when something has been a part of our culture for ages, it cannot simply disappear when it is no longer practical or functional. If it is abolished, as in post-modernity, it may resurface with unconscious, indirect, and unhealthy traits.
A similar point has been made by Nobel Prize winner Svetlana Alexievich. In Russian-speaking cultures, significant events must re-trace something already evident in their collective foundations. Svetlana Alexievich illustrates how crises like Chernobyl or the war in Ukraine appear to deviate from classical patterns found in the works of Tolstoy or Dostoevsky, creating a space of collective disorientation because they are unprecedented and therefore ungraspable within that context.
B. Regarding the part of your question on economic trends, let me clarify. I aim to understand the evolution, or involution, of sexuality by drawing parallels with diagrams, figures, and numbers. Strictly speaking, I study trends, but not from an economic perspective. On the contrary, my point—along with the simple evidence—is that sexuality itself does not directly manifest as economically valuable, like production does. In other words: making love does not contribute to GDP.
This is why politicians, obsessed with GDP, failed to recognize that the decline in sexuality would lead to a decrease in fertility—if not immediately, then certainly in the following year(s). Products related to sex, such as fashion, lingerie, and perfume, continue to sell. However, according to data from various countries and continents, sexuality is still declining. This is especially true among young people, who often fear sexuality because it implies commitment.
The purpose of my diagrams is to attempt to make the trend visible, specifically the bell-shaped curve of significant psychic activity. For instance, consider the tragic decrease of the Flynn index, which refers to the average Intelligence Quotient (IQ) of a population. The younger the group examined, the more their IQ appears to be decreasing.
New technologies, particularly social media, are changing our behaviors. In your view, do these digital tools impact desire and libido in contemporary society?
They do. While I am not a specialist in the field, the literature is overwhelming. There is an undeniable and strong chronological link.
Worldwide, the average IQ and Flynn Index increased until the 1990s, when it plateaued. In the new century, it began to decrease. With the advent of the Internet, our knowledge and capabilities initially expanded. However, soon the sheer volume of information available became overwhelming—even our brains and memories have limits. This abundance of information eventually led to confusion. As early as the 1990s, this was studied as the Internet Paradox.
A little later, social media became available. Their structure favors shorter and faster communication, which tends to eliminate in-depth analysis and differentiation. Analyses of their influence have naturally highlighted the chronological relationship between their spread and the rise of depression, suicide attempts, and other issues, particularly among the younger generation. New studies, however, indicate not only a correlation but increasingly a causal relationship (see The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt).
Simply owning a smartphone enables constant access to porn. It seems that almost all boys and now a majority of girls watch some form of it. Anxiety among adolescents has skyrocketed. Moreover, throughout the 20th century, the age of one’s first sexual experience steadily decreased. Now, however, it is increasing. Many teenagers are tempted to turn to porn to anticipate what will happen. This is problematic for both sexes.
The models it offers are not just false; they are prototypes of what is fake. Women are depicted as totally submissive, which, fortunately, is now true only in pathological cases. Men are portrayed as Olympic champions of 24/7 erections—something that does not even exist in myth. If a normal male adolescent is insecure, and today he is particularly anxious about his first experience, such examples can turn that insecurity into disaster.
Today’s typical 20-year-old patient speaks very little about sex during analytical sessions. Just two or even one generation ago, this would have been unthinkable.
In light of your research, how does gender dysphoria fit into this broader phenomenon of the transformation of desire?
Gender dysphoria appears to be primarily a subcategory of the chaotic entanglement caused by rampant consumerism and competition. It is too early to fully assess the phenomenon. For example, the Tavistock Clinic has reported a 5000 % increase in cases. Those who claim that chemical alterations in our environment, including in our food, also contribute to this issue also have a point. Previously unknown substances now inhabit our bodies, including our sexual organs (see Countdown. How our Modern World Is Threatening Sperm Counts, Altering Male and Female Reproductive Development and Imperiling the Future of the Human Race by Shanna Swan).
Much of the novelty appears to stem from the fluid cultural and psychological environment, which reflects a variant of the paradox of choice. I have also referred to this as a reemergence of the mythical figure of Buridan’s ass, named after the medieval French philosopher. If a donkey is content with one bucket of hay, suddenly presenting him with two may lead him to starve. Faced with identical options, he encounters a dilemma of choice for which he has not been prepared. Many modern adolescents, who fear sexuality, justify their delays by reasoning: « First, I need to figure out whether I am heterosexual or homosexual. »
Historically, there seems to be a link between artistic creativity, the liberation of morals, and a freer expression of desire. Could culture and creativity play a key role in reactivating or redirecting the energies of desire?
Yes, there is a link, but the connection is contextual. Creativity requires freedom, which to a reasonable extent also includes sexual freedom. However, sexual freedom does not necessarily lead to creativity.
Take for example the encounter between the Greeks and Persians described by Herodotus, which I discuss in Growth and Guilt. By the way, because Persian psychology knew no limits, it did not develop coherently, and ultimately succumbed to the Greeks. The Greeks of the fifth century BC, those who fought in the Persian wars, looked their interlocutors in the eye and engaged in argument. In contrast, the Persians lay prone and looked down. It is no coincidence that fifth-century BC Greece became the cultural pinnacle of the ancient world.
The Italian Renaissance marked the next peak in Western creativity, bringing with it a liberation of sexuality following the severe restrictions of the Middle Ages. However, the great French historians of the Middle Ages inform us that the Italian Renaissance did not emerge suddenly; its creativity had been developing gradually over the centuries after the year 1000. The picture is complex.
After the partial sexual liberation of the Renaissance, a deeper sexual freedom took root in Italy, reaching its zenith in the 18th century, particularly in Venice. Yet, following its heights in the 15th and 16th centuries, Italian creativity and economy experienced a decline that lasted for approximately four centuries, extending into the 20th century. I have just completed a lengthy book on this reality, which Fascism has partially erased from our collective consciousness.
What role can Jungian psychology play in helping individuals and societies restore a more natural relationship with their sexuality?
A natural relationship? After what we have discussed, I’m afraid we must accept that there isn’t much of a way back. Both the Middle Ages and the modern era have imposed numerous unnecessary repressions. We have managed to eliminate many of these, and the second half of the 20th century was a relatively fortunate and liberated time, not just for sexuality.
Now, we often find ourselves serving objects and things that were meant to serve us. Our relationships frequently feel too cold, much like the screens through which we express them. Of course, we have many opportunities to return to a more natural, instinctive, and warm way of life. Changing our environment, culture, and economy is challenging; it requires individual effort. In this particular instance, we must not allow our instincts to be disconnected from the archetypes and the passions they have always been associated with.
I know a young man of today who, fortunately, doesn’t just rely on screens but also reads books—long ones, too. Every evening, he and his girlfriend read a bit of War and Peace aloud to each other. After this long journey, they had a child, though I assume they had made love even earlier.
Do you envision a possibility for the renewal of desire, or are we destined for a continual erosion of this vital energy?
I am a Jungian analyst, not a prophet or a guru—there are already so many of them! I am content for having brought greater awareness to a significant issue that has been right in front of us: the ongoing decline of sexuality. Yet, we have not paid attention to it because it is neither a product nor a commodity. It was simply represented by figures and numbers, in a complete and exhaustive way, much like a thorough public service that has been neglected and abandoned by the public.
Isn’t fostering consciousness, after all, the true task of an analyst?
Interview conducted by Claire Droin– December 2024
Luigi Zoja
Luigi Zoja is an analytical psychologist in private practice in Milan who lectures internationally. He is a former training analyst of the C.G. Jung Institute Zurich, past president of CIPA (Centro Italiano di Psicologia Analitica) and former president of the IAAP (International Association of Analytical Psychology). He has taught at the University of Insubria and at Beijing Normal University, and his previous books have been published in multiple languages.
Presentation of Luigi Zoja’s books on this site:
Learn more
- Claire Droin’s piece Paranoia or Lucid Madness
- Claire Droin’s interview The Decline of Sexuality